i’m not a girl’s girl. by that, i mean i lie constantly to other women. i tell them they look beautiful when i do not think they do. i pretend to be happy for them. i am contractually kind. because to be unkind is to be ugly, and to be ugly is unforgivable. my mother taught me this. she smiled sweetly while cutting a woman down to size. i learned early to only admire women when they were diminished. so i clap and nod and smile before the bitterness shows on my face. i resent her for this. i resent women for this. i resent myself for resenting them.
- from i am not a girl’s girl by zoe pham
Zoe was one of the first Substacks I subscribed to. Her writing was raw in a way I often struggle with, and I found her imagery beautifully stark. Her topics are not often pleasant ones, but I think that was what I so admired– humans like to self-edit. This feels safer than vocalizing our worst thoughts, but it also keeps us from realizing hey, I’m not the only one who struggles with that. It keeps us from connecting.
Sometimes I personally relate to the things Zoe writes, and sometimes I don’t. But no matter the topic, her writing always moves me. For a moment, I am brought into another person’s world. That’s what good writing is– the ability to transport people solely through words on a page. And Zoe’s words linger. They haunt.
I’ve admired Zoe and her work for a while now, and she was my natural first choice for an interview. My intention was to get a peek behind the writer-sonas we all develop (purposefully or not), and establish points of connection– for instance, I was delighted to learn that Zoe and I share a love for Khaled Hosseini. It was such a pleasure to work with Zoe, and I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did.
Interview with Zoe Pham
If you could sum up your writing life in three words, what would they be?
unpredictable, messy, cathartic.
What recurring themes do you notice in your writing?
i have several recurring themes that i can't shake. maybe i will one day, once i’ve grown. maybe i’ll never grow out of them. i write about love and the grief that often follows, the weird relationship i have with my body, my crumbling mental health, and loneliness.
the point is, i can have sex with you as charles or the mailman or the bartender. i want to have sex with you as myself, but i grow rigid at the thought of you having sex with me, as i am. when i look at the body i live in, i know it about as well as i know a stranger's body. most days, this is the body of a stranger. the stranger has no name or place in my life. i'm just tethered to it. this body follows me around like an abandoned puppy, nipping at my heals, begging for attention. i kick it away and feel bad. it doesn't know any better. it didn't ask to be here as much as i didn't ask for it to be trailing at my feet. most days, i could be any of those people, or none of them, or all of them at once. i just don't know how to exist as myself. - from i don’t want to have sex with you
Why do you write?
i feel like that's a loaded question. why does anyone write? i often look back at the authors i adore most and the common theme shared by them is suffering. suffering because of their circumstances, grief, love, mental health, etc. suffering is easier when you know you’re not in it alone. even if no one reaches out, calls, or texts me, knowing deep down, that someone out there, even if they're on the other side of the world relates, gives my suffering purpose.
How long have you been writing? At what age did you start?
i’ve been writing since i could hold a pencil. i wasn't very good at it at first and that doubt still crosses over to my adult life, but i wanted to be heard, i wanted to connect, and i wanted to express myself. i began winning awards for my writing at around age eight and had my first poem published at nine. my writing is what allowed me to go to college and i am forever grateful that i didn't stop.
How has your writing evolved over the course of your life?
i definitely fell victim to the instagram poetry trend when it first started. i have all of rupi kaur’s books (they now sit untouched on my shelf). i won’t lie, the style is trendy for a reason — it's bite sized, easy to digest, relatable. i probably could’ve gone far with it. then, in college, my english professor told me that my writing lacked depth, that it was shallow, meaningless, a waste of my time. i didn't write for several years after that. instead i read as much as i could — the classics, the celebrated writers, the ones where publishing a book was a shot in the dark because social media didn't exist. i no longer write to please other people or to be understood. i don't write to be popular. i write because i have something to say. i write because when i’m gone, whenever my life fizzles out, i want to leave something behind, something truthful, something raw. even if it's uncomfortable, jarring, unrelatable.
i met a man like him again in college. he was my english professor. i recognized the outline of his body under the pretentious chelsea boots and awful cardigans he always wore. he would force us to listen to his shitty autofiction and manifestos in class. they were mainly about sleeping with women and i had this undeniable jealousy that caused me to grow rigid every time. but he liked me and i thought he saw me underneath my writing. i liked him back. he filled the weird gap that had been left by all of the men that liked me and liked little girls. and the men that liked me because they liked little girls. - from it was never my fault
What are the biggest struggles/challenges you deal with in your writing life? What holds you back?
i go through phases of intense writer’s block that is probably worsened by my depression. i have a lot to say, but the thoughts are often fleeting and i don't catch them in time to trap them on paper. i also have a demanding career outside of substack and instagram. working in healthcare is physically and mentally draining. sometimes i just have nothing left to give. i’ve had to teach myself that it's okay to take care of myself first. the words always find their way back to me. they may look and sound different, but they come back.
What are your loftiest writing aspirations?
before my dad died, he often talked about how he wanted me to publish his immigration story. i’m still waiting for the day that the words for his story find me. i wish everyone could’ve known him. he was love in human form.
Do you consider writing to be a hobby, or a calling? Why?
as i’ve mentioned before, writing has been a lifelong thing for me, and hopefully it will never leave me. i don't know what i’d do if i couldn't write. it is the one constant i have, the thing i cling onto, the thing that makes me feel safe. i may not go down in history, i may never publish a book, and the world may never know my name, but it is the one thing that has carried me through life. it's the reason i’m here answering these questions. i think hobbies come and go, even if you do it regularly, you can take a break, but i can't stop once i’ve started. the words overflow and they force their way out whether i like it or not.
love is not an object; love is the space left behind, the air displaced when two souls collide. love is the echo in an empty room, the scent of rain in the morning, the hush before sleep takes hold. some nights, i think if i could just take a part of you—one small part—i might believe this was real. i might believe it could last. your voice in a locket. your laughter pressed between the pages of a book. your hands folded neatly inside mine, never to be let go. i would place you where i keep all my quiet things: in the corners of my mind, in the creases of old letters, in the hush of an afternoon too still to be named. - from the love that stays
What does your process of writing look like?
my writing process can be a little chaotic. i’ve tried to write with intention and follow themes, which works sometimes, but my most powerful pieces have come to me in short sentences. i could be riding in the car or grocery shopping and it strikes me. it plays like a movie in my head and i write whatever i see. it's like a memory almost, as if the story had always been there, or if the words were waiting for the right moment to come. i then write like my life depends on it, often in one go. i used to not edit at all and sometimes i still don't. i felt like it was more authentic that way, and, in some ways, it is. i’ve also learned the value of editing though, especially when presenting my pieces to a large group of people. so i let the pieces sit for a few days or weeks and revisit them when they're no longer fresh. sometimes i rewrite them from memory and combine two (or three pieces) into one. i’ve been focused on doing my stories justice, because i’ve lived through them, and they deserve to be memorialized in something more than a messy post. (i still love messy posts).
What's the greatest thing you've ever read?
the greatest thing i’ve ever read has to be the kite runner by khaled hosseini. i read it for the first time in high school and several times since then. what sets it apart from most other books, is every time i read it, i get more out of the story. it takes something special, maybe luck, to create something timeless, but he did it with ease.
How authentic do you think writing has to be to move people?
i enjoy jarring works more than anything. hard truths, disturbing memories, and sometimes painful confessions. if a writer can set down their ego just for a moment, it's almost guaranteed to move someone, at least me. not every piece has to be an elaborate thing that's perfectly crafted with the best vocabulary and insane quotes. it can be messy. it can be a few lines, but it has to be raw. it has to be human.
i don't love you anymore because you despised everything except for my body. this body, this stupid dog that follows me around. the truth is, we're all dogs. flat-bellied and pathetic, devouring our weight in dirt to taste a spec of salt. you gutted me like a ripe fruit. even when it hurt. even when i didn't want to. like your good dog, i rolled over and laid down and performed. most nights i would lay beside you and sob until i shook the bed with the weight of it all. i never felt an arm around me, i never felt your chest pressed against my tear-stained cheeks, or even a kiss to my hair. i loved you and you didn't care.
breathe.
i don't love you anymore. what i really mean is that i don't love the person you've always been.
i loved you in the way a dog loves its owner.
i don't want to be the dog anymore. -from i don’t love you anymore
Are there things about your writing self that are distinct from your day to day self?
i feel like i’m more honest in my writing. it has less consequences. that's true in every art form though. i edit and rewrite myself in real life to please others, to fit in, to keep in touch with family and friends. with my writing there is no expectation of myself. i don't hold myself to any societal standard. i simply just exist.
And last, but not least, if you could tell all writers one thing, what would it be?
never stop writing. regardless of what your parents, friends, school, peers, or the world tells you, do not stop. we were blessed with the gift of language. use it. use it for yourself because i promise, someone needs to hear what you have to say. your time will come and the right people will find you. they will see you.
Zoe Pham prides herself in writing raw, painfully honest, and vulnerable essays and poems to explore what it really means to be human. She currently lives in Georgia with her cat, Cowboy, and dog, Willow.
Despite being trained, and currently working, in the medical field, she pours her heart into flightless and is a staff writer for Venom And Verse magazine. In her spare time, it's not uncommon to find her among friends and family, reading, or wandering aimlessly around her local thrift stores.
You can also find her on Instagram @emptyvasespoetry or @venomandverse
Do you have an artist (big or small) that you’d like to see interviewed? If you’re interested in submitting someone for consideration, you find more information here.
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An announcement about content tweaks to Introspective Ink should be hitting your inboxes in the middle of next week!
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Great interview… I am intrigued.
Can I just say….i love how she lays it all out there and her lower case I. Because I never learned to type and i feel like i should stop editing myself so much and let it fly…Thanks for sharing this one.